The Surest Thing At United States Trials, Katie Ledecky Chasing Some More History

EPIC: Katie Ledecky of the United States of America - by Patrick B. Kraemer  - [This image was the SwimVortex choice of Photo of the Year 2015, Patrick having captured a bulls-eye snapshot that summed up Ledecky, attitude, achievement and a target reached]
EPIC: Katie Ledecky of the United States of America - by Patrick B. Kraemer - [This image was the SwimVortex choice of Photo of the Year 2015, Patrick having captured a bulls-eye snapshot that summed up Ledecky, attitude, achievement and a target reached]

It would take a monumental effort, but if Katie Ledecky sets a world record in the 200 freestyle, she’ll be the first woman since Shane Gould in 1971 to hold freestyle world records from 200 through 1500 meters.

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Comments

gheko

Katie could possibly hold all 5 freestyle world records in the future, This year will be tough to achieve that feat, but definitely possible in the next 4 yrs, as long as she does not get injured!

gheko

Whether she can go a 51.9 in the 100m free remains to be seen!

kevin roose

i beleive the American girls are under real threat from the Australian girls in terms of medals at Rio . The ace for America is Franklin if she fires could tilt Americas way …..
I am really looking forward to the 4 x 100 medley relay for the girls i am tipping Emma to have a break out meet and Bohl to do another P.B ………BRING IT ON

aswimfan

Gheko, just a small correction: there are 6 freestyle word records now, not 5.

It is interesting to see what events Ledecky will swim in Omaha. She is also entered in 50 free and 400 IM.
As great as Ledecky is, she won’t match Katie Hoff’s astounding feats at 2008 trials: qualified in all 200-400-800 free and 200-400 IM as well as 4×100 relay alternate. Not sure if this feat had been matched previously by any US swimmer.

aswimfan

Kevin, here’s CURRENT US women medal chances in Rio:
4×200, 400 and 800 free golds almost certainty.
200 free very strong for gold
100 breast equal chances for gold
100 fly chances for a minor medal
200 back and 400 IM strong for minor medal
4×100 medley and 4×100 free strong for minor medal.

We’ll see if this situation change by next weekend.

Anon

Aswimfan, Katie has already won Olympic golds and will win at least 3 more in Rio. How many did Katie hoff win in her entire career? None! No point qualifying in heaps of events if you can’t win one

commonwombat

Gheko, whilst I can see Ledecky holding the WRs from 200 through to 1500; she’s up against straight out sprints specialists when it comes to the 50 & 100 so I can’t see her claiming all the FS records.

Kevin, with US Trials much closer to the Olympics, they can look to hold taper or some are even able to semi taper for Trials so as to peak at the big one. With a 4 month lag-time, Aussies just can’t do that & therefore it is a situation of having to peak twice a year with a completely new preparation for the major event … that just doesnt work for everyone.

Whilst the US women certainly haven’t been as dominant as they have historically been; I’m not sure it’ll be a case of AUS women sweeping them out of the pool.

Lets take a look at the events
50free: Adv AUS, USA likely out of medals
100free: Adv AUS w X2 medal potential, USA likely out of medals
200free: Adv USA, outside chance of AUS minor medal
400free: Adv USA, potential AUS minor medal
800free: Adv AUS, potential AUS minor medal
800free: Adv USA, potential AUS minor medal
100back: At this point narrow Adv AUS, other intl players in equation
200back: no call until after US Trials
100brs: Adv USA, unclear as to extent until after

commonwombat

cont from above post
200brs: no call until after US Trials, other nations may be significantly ahead of both
100fly: Likely win by other nation, lean Adv USA
200fly: scant 2016 data from USA but going on intl records, lean Adv USA. Other intl players potentially ahead of both
200IM: Likely win by other intl player, likely USA medal Adv USA
400IM: Likely win by other intl player, likely USA medal
4X100: Adv AUS
4X200: Adv USA
4XMED: No clear call.

How does that line up then, Kevin? I only see 3 really strong gold chances for AUS, namely 50free,100 free & 4X100. 100back is probable favourite but others could very easily spoil that party. 200back is one where we’ll need to see how US Trials play out. Likewise with 4XMED. There is a smattering of minor medal chances but the bulk are more in the category of possibles rather than probables.

USA have four strong golds (200,400,800free & 4×200). Where precisely they stand in backstroke, breastroke & fly is uncertain but there’s currently only one out of the 6 events in these strokes where AUS looks clearly superior. IM – USA categorically ahead.

I see the following events as almost certainly going to swimmers from nations other than the “Old Firm”: 100fly, 200IM, 400IM. Also very much in play for both breastrokes, 200fly and potentially 100back

kevin roose

Here is what i see Australian medal chances womens :
50 Free, 100 Free , 4 x100 Free almost certain Gold
4 x 100 Medley potental gold
100 back potential gold Seebohm
200 free minor model Mckeon
400 free minor medal Ashford
800 free minor medal Ashford
100 back minoir medal Wilson
200 back minor medal Seebohm
100 fly minor medal Mckeon
200 fly minor medal Groves
4 x200 relay minor medal
I dont see medals individual medley races or breastroke

aswimfan

who is Ashford?

Anon,
I was not trying to compare katie H and katie L careers, because it is clear as daylight to everyone that L is way ahead already in overall swimming career.
I was trying to compare US OT performances only.

gheko

Yes there was no 50m free in 1972 otherwise Shane would have probably had that record as well, I do not think Katie will ever be a 50m sprinter, but if she can improve her 100m 53.7 by about a second she will be right up there!

commonwombat

But will that happen, Gheko ? We cannot know for certain what she may do post Rio ? She may swim NCAA all through college, she may choose to turn pro at some point, she may choose to get out whilst on top.

Whilst its likely that she may shelve the 1500 due to its non-Olympic status, I think her 100free ventures have been more geared towards relay. Who knows, she might just swim the lights out at Trials and be one of the top 2 qualifiers but I’m not sure we’ll see anything much in advance of 53.4 from her this year. A sub53 relay split in Rio, plausible but no sure bet.

The event which seems to be most likely to be taken up is 400IM. If this is the case, then one suspects 100free might be sidelined

gheko

Who knows I am surprised she has not had any injury issues yet, with the massive workload she takes on, I think Kevin meant Jess Ashwood, not Ashford, who was also a great sprinter but in a different sport!

kevin roose

Thanks gheko yes i meant Ashwood she is in the form of her life right now but being a realist minor medal at best 400/800 which would be a terrific result for her …..

Markj

I have a feeling that Kevin Cordes is ready for a break through performance in the 200 Breast. I would not go so far as to say a world record, but think he will win the event in 2:07 low, and perhaps even go under that mark in Rio.

aswimfan

I agree, I think we will see the result of him training under Lopez for the past year. Moving to Singapore showed his commitment as well, not that it is hardship to live in Singapore.

Markj

I agree with aswimfan. I think that Cordes training with Lopez has made all the difference. I think Cordes has the perfect stroke for the long course 200 Breast.

Yozhik

Sport fans are never get satisfied. When it was the historic moment of three world records from 400 to 1500 they demanded four world titles from 200 through 1500. Now they want unimaginable 200-400-800-1500 world records.
To break Pellegrini’s fantastic achievement at 200 will require 1.34% performance improvement. If not to count Ledecky’s 2012 season when she was approaching her elite status she never did it in one season. 1.34% jump will bring her
Under 53sec at 100m
Under 8min at 800m
3:55 at 400m
And 15:12 at 1500m
The only reason why people are hoping it will happen is her surprising racings in January when she dropped 0.8sec at 100m and 0.7sec at 200m. It is clear today that it wasn’t a regular in-season meet but the point of importance that she was specially prepared for. She was facing off Sjostrom at 200 and 100 trying to make people look at her as the real world champion at 200 and the valuable member of relay team. Amazingly, but she achieved this goal just with one this meet and people began to believe in all this stuff immediately. For no reason they are expecting even greater jump in her performance in summer despite nothing followed yet this January spectacular performance.
I’m trying to be reasonable but want badly to be surprised one more time.

Yozhik

Whoever is trying to find the appropriate scale of measurements of Ledecky’s phenome has to be careful with choosing a swimmer to compare with. I agree with Anon that Katie Hoff can hardly be used for this purposes. The achievements of Shane Gould are frequently used as a career target for Katie Ledecky. Because those events stay away from our time by more than 40 years they got covered with some dust of mystification. It can be useful to look at numbers to get the feeling of what kind of swimmer Shane Gould was and if Ledecky is the remake of her. Nobody has a crazy idea to compare Sjostrom with Ledecky. It is possible that the same situation can have place with Ledecky and Gould.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109797241/Gould.JPG
400, 800, 1500 records that Gould had broken were very fresh. Just a few months old.
800 record was bettered by 1.3 sec only and was short lived.
1500 record hasn’t lasted long either (there was no completion I think at this distance in Olympic year). But look at the improvement – 22.3 seconds. I think there wasn’t well developed completion at this distance and frequently changing records were soft.
Deserves the attention the 100 record. The previous one was more than seven years old. It probably was tough.
The longevity and the size of improvement of 400 and especially 200 records make me think about Shane Gould as sprinter/middle distance swimmer and that it will be more suitable comparing her rather with Sarah Sjostrom than with Katie Ledecky

Craig Lord

Yozhik, I think direct comparisons rarely work at all – I like the thought process… but not sure that Gould Vs Sjostrom (who has fly but is nothing like a swimmer who could set the pace from 200 to 1500m freestyle) works so well. Had Gould continued to race internationally after Munich and the GDR had not arrived with quite the same fervour as steroids lent to ‘progress’, the story might have been different but contemporary events are important, including the fact that the 100 and 200m free world records fell to State Plan 14:25 and the world of swimming changed dramatically as a result of that from 1973 onwards. Gould was a very young, very dominant figure in 1972 who drew the light and attention that shooting stars tend to draw. I recall meeting her and watching her as a boy. Her impact and that of Katie Ledecky have parallels, as do the 200, 400, 800 targets. Five solo medals from Katie in Rio there won’t be, but she may make it three freestyle golds and be the first one to do that 200, 400, 800 since Debbie Meyer – another parallel. Comparisons only work at the surface level, including impact – and in that sense Gould and Ledecky and Bruce G’s words may yet make more sense than most other comparisons that might be applied to Ledecky.

aswimfan

I think in 40 years time there will be someone with the same thought process of Yozhik who will adamantly say:
Ledecky had it easy, 40 years ago Ledecky’s achievements were covered with dust of mystifications. Of course Ledecky won all those freestyle events, she had no competition.

Craig Lord

Yes, asf, that was the one part of Yozhik’s comment that I vehemently disagree with 🙂 I lived and saw it and so did many others still here watching and enjoying today. There was no ‘mystification’. She was a glorious and thrilling pathfinder. Inspirational in her time and for many years since.

aswimfan

What yozhik conveniently left out is the fact that no one else during Gould’s period was anywhere close to her achievements. If it were that easy to hold all freestyle WRs during that time, there would have been someone else close to doing it, right? Nope.
Not even debbie Meyer in four years prior, which should have been easier, no? Not.
Not Kornelia ender.
Not Shirley babashoff who had to choose sprint (1972) or distance (1976).

Yozhik also forgot that Gould also broke 200 IM WR, and Olympics gold. In all her Munich finals, Gould had to compete against specialists. Aside from babashoff (100 and 200 free) there was NO other multiple medalist in Gould’s 5 events. This proves that talk about how there was no specialist in early 1970s is just crap.

aswimfan

Comparing Sjostrom against Gould is very silly. Sjostrom is a sprinter who can also swim very fast 200 free.
Call me the next time Sjostrom swim 3:57 in 400 free or 8:07 in 800 free or 15:25 in 1,500 free and 2:06 in 200 IM.

Compare Sjostrom to Inge de Bruijn, Nathalie Coughlin or Libby Trickett. Now that makes sense.

aswimfan

Mark Spitz was widely regarded as the greatest swimmer of all time, that is, until Phelps’ 2008 Beijing. Everyone mentioned Spitz’1972 Munich as the gold standard for Olympics achievements for swimmer. That, and also the fact he held many WRs at the same time.
Between 2000-2008 Phelps worked his ass off to better Olympics’ result to become the new GOAT.

No one, definitely no one who followed swimming, ever said that Mark Spitz’ achievements were covered in dust of mystifications. That is beyond silliness.

Yozhik

Craig, you and your ‘watch dog’ completely misunderstood the purpose of my post about Shane Gould. There was no intention at all to raise some doubts about her place in the history of competitive swimming or to start the stupid discussion of “Who is greater”. As you said: “She was a glorious and thrilling…” And the word “was” is the very important part of this sentence. How many young and not very young people know about Shane Gould today? If they are familiar with this name then the only thing that they associate it with is the fact that at some point she held five world records in freestyle. They don’t know neither the duration of this period nor the story of those records, and how she got beaten and why she retired so abruptly, being seemingly on the rise. That is where I stood myself a year ago. But when I started to inquire about Shane I surprisingly found out that I am not alone with that. At this site I asked this schmuck for help in this matter. It was indeed a silly thing to do because the response on my questions was “Bla-bla-bla” only. That is why I made this chart to give some information about Shane Gould for those who is curious. When there are no facts provided we are appealing to our imagination and that is how myths got born.
Shane Gould held simultaneously five world records in freestyle for several months only.
Being a fresh world record holder she was able for bronze only at 100 free at Olympic Games.
It wasn’t German girls who stopped her. Four of five her freestyle records was broken by American swimmers not long after she set them.
And the following is the most popular preface whenever someone speaks about Shane Gould
“Had Gould continued to race internationally after Munich and the GDR had not arrived …”
After Olympic Games in Munich she was sent by her parents to California where
she continued to swim but was training at 70 percent of her pre-Olympics workload.
“So I got unfit and put on weight because I discovered hot chocolate fudge sundaes and sugar doughnuts,” Gould said. “I’m spending money, got my driver’s license and was loaned a car. I had independence and made some bad choices.”
“My world expanded. I started to look for other challenges, and then by the end of the year I just started to not swim anymore.”

Her parents moved her back home and either she got madly in love or there was a punishment with the marriage in rural Australia but we haven’t seen her in the pool since then.
Someday I hope to learn more stories about this bright swimmer and hopefully it will be at this site.
Regards.

Craig Lord

Yozhik, two of the world records fell to Kornelia Ender, as I stated – so those two did indeed go to an East German, while the 400, 800 and 1500 fell to Americans. And I know Shane very well, both the story of her swimming and what she is doing now, so the rest of your note is blah, blah, blah. I understood well the meaning of your first note, unless you failed to express yourself properly. Your homework on Shane Gould is not, if you’ll forgive me, impressive to someone who witnessed the swim career in the contemporary literature of the day, in film and in person as a boy, as a fan, as a young swimmer – and then much later covered the story of swimming and more as a journalist. I last met Shane in January this year. She was in great form.

aswimfan

Yozhik,
You told me two weeks ago to shut up when you thought I was misinformed about Soviet Union Era because I didn’t live in it.
Now, you have a complete misinformed opinion about Shane Gould and you didn’t experience the swimming in her era, but Craig Lord is too kind to tell you to shut up and instead giving you all the information and reasons why your opinion is wildly inaccurate.

Here’s what Bruce Gemmell said about Ledecky:
“She’s not there yet, but certainly the standard is Shane Gould”

But according to a Yozhik, everybody, including Ledecky’s coach and everyone who witnessed Gould live is wrong.

Oh, again, in your last comment, you conveniently left out the fact Gould also held 200 IM WR. And she WON 200 IM GOLD.

Now go and analyze that.

aswimfan

What’s so fascinating is that Yozhik’s constant effort to prop up Ledecky by undermining other great swimmers. As if Ledecky’s place in swimming history need any prop up.
Few months ago he even claimed that relay gold should determine who will be greater in Rio: Ledecky or Sjostrom. I leave you with that.

Yozhik

@Craig Lord. I’m looking forward to get impressed by the free of charge not melodramatic article written by the person who knows so much about Shane Gould.

Yozhik

Shirley Babashoff had beaten Gould’s world records at 200 FR. First time in August 1972 and in August 1974 ( next day after it was done first by Kornelia Ender). So we both are accurate with who took over Shane Gould records.

aswimfan

Yozhik,

What’s melodramatic is urging everyone with straight face that best comparison for Shane Gould in today’s swimmer is Sarah Sjostrom, and not Katie Ledecky.

Let’s see:

Sarah Sjostrom: WRs in 50 and 100 fly, NO Olympics medal, multiple world championships medals including 4 golds in 50/100 fly and 50/100 free.

Shane Gould: WRs in 100-200-400-800-1500 free and 200 IM, Olympics medals including golds in 100-200-400-800 free and 200 IM, never swum in a world championships.

If that’s appropriate comparison, someone has certainly not followed swimming between 1972 and 2012.

Here’s a better comparison for Sarah with more contemporary sprinters*
(* whose achievements, to Yozhik’s liking, have not been “dusted in mystifications”)

Inge De Bruijn: WRs in 50/100 fly AND 50/100 free, Multiple Olympics AND Worlds medals including 9 golds in 50/100 free AND 50/100 fly.

Nathalie Coughlin: WRs in 100 back, Multiple Olympics AND Worlds medals including 11 golds in 50/100 back, 100 fly, 100 free and 200 IM.

Libby Trickett: WRS in 50-100 free, Multiple Olympics AND Worlds medals including 12 golds in 50/100 free and 100 fly.

What? Sarah can swim a mean 200 free and had fastest yearly time in 200 free?
So did Nathalie (2004) and Libby (2006).
What? Sarah broke SCM WRs (100 fly and 200 free)?
So did Nathalie (100-200 back, 100 fly, 100 IM) and Libby Trickett (100 fly, 100-200 free).

When Sarah has not even matched the accomplishments of more recent sprinters, telling everyone that better comparison for Sarah is Shane Gould is beyond ridiculous.

aswimfan

Interestingly, Ledecky withdrew from 400 IM:http://omegatiming.com/File/Download?id=000110000301042500FFFFFFFFFFFF01

For a moment, there was a possibility that Ledecky wanted to attempt 400 IM-200-400-800 free golds which has never been done before.
400 IM-400-800 free golds has been completed by Janet Evans, so Ledecky now attempt to equal Debie Meyer’s 200-400-800 free.

aswimfan

“Shirley Babashoff had beaten Gould’s world records at 200 FR. First time in August 1972 and in August 1974 ( next day after it was done first by Kornelia Ender). So we both are accurate with who took over Shane Gould records.”

Not accurate. It is interesting that you purposefully left out THE FACT that Gould re-took the record less than a month later in 1 September 1972.
This record of 2:03.56 lasted a full two years before Ender finally shaved it to 2:03.22 in 22 August 1974.

aswimfan

So, Craig Lord was correct and accurate, while Yozhik was incorrect and inaccurate.

Craig Lord

I have written several, Yozhik. They are now in the archive, so you won’t have access to them. I can’t help that. I do, however, recommend Tumble Turns, her autobiography. That will give you more insight.

commonwombat

Sjostrom holds SWE records from 100 to 400free (latter 4.06.04), 50 & 100back (latter 59.98) as well as 50 & 100fly. Make of that what you will.

In essence, ALL the swimmers named in this thread are exceptional athletes; some who’s reputations and records have trancended their “epoch” or are likely to. The danger is in grading one superior to the other. They all have/had their own different physiologies and technologies, training techniques and opportunities plus the advent of professionalism over the past few generations.

All anyone can ever really be is the best of your era in whatever field of endeavour you are engaged in.

Yozhik

@CW. Completely agree with you that we shouldn’t grade swimmers from different epoch. I never do it. That’s why I got surprised when my notes about Shane Gould was taken by someone here as an attempt to put her below contemporary swimmers. But if I am asked to explain some young person what kind of swimmer Shane Gould was then based on articles that do some sport analytics I would say that she is rather on Pellegrini-Sjostrom side than on Ledecky’s one. Sjostrom’s and Pellegrini’s 100-200-400 are very impressive. Could they show good times (not necessarily world records) at 800 and 1500 when they were 16? I think they could if that was a target. But of course these parallels shouldn’t be taken literally. Shane Gould was an exceptional swimmer. That makes the side-by-side comparison with another exception kind of illogical.
@Craig Lord. Autobiography is a nice reading, but when I am making a judgment I prefer to listen both side’s stories. Some professional analytical review of Shane Gould’s achievements would interested me more. I like numbers and statistics more than emotional sentiments. But if you recommend this book then such reading most likely won’t be a wasting of time.

aswimfan

Yozhik,
You are a LIAR.
Everyone can read for themselves that you are the one who ACTUALLY BROUGHT Shane Gould into the conversation in this comment thread. No one mentioned Gould until you did.
You know, we can read.

I cannot believe that you are trying to twist the whole thing. Sorry to say, but what you have been writing is BLA BLA BLA.

You even attempted to convince us to compare Shane Gould to Sarah Sjostrom.
Please.

You claim you like numbers and data?
Here’s the facts:
1. Shane Gould’s olympics feat is, until now, the greatest single Olympics performances by a female swimmer. Sarah Sjostrom’s Olympics = 0 medal.
2. Shane Gould broke 200 IM WR and won Olympics gold in the event. And now you are trying to tell us that instead of Ledecky we should compare Gould to Pellegrini and Sjostrom?
Shane Gould excelled in 100-1500 and IM.
Ledecky excels in 100-1500 and attempted 400 IM until she dropped it for this trial. That’s not enough parallel for you.
Ledecky’s coach said that the standard is Shane Gould and Ledecky is working to equal that standard.
That’s not enough evidence for you.
When Phelps was trying to win 8 golds in Athens and the Beiing, EVERYONE including Phelps and Bowman and Thorpe was referring to Mark Spitz.
That’s not enough evidence for you.

Please, you are very transparent to the rest of us. And you are a hypocrite too.
You are now saying we shouldn’t compare swimmers from different era, and yet few sentences later you wanted us to compare Gould to Sjostrom and Pellegrini.

aswimfan

One of Yozhik’s most ridiculous attempts to unnecessarily prop up Ledecky’s place in the pantheon of swimming greats is by claiming that relay gold is greater than individual gold.

Craig Lord

Yozhik, your stance is not serious: Shane Gould is one of the all-time greats of swimming, the only winner of five solo medals, 3 of those gold, at a single Games; the Olympic Games is the ultimate measure of the swimming achievement in elite sport (that has long been so and remains to be so). She did what she did in her time, just as the achievements of all others must be achieved in their times. As Bruce G said: she is the standard. Quite so. On the most obvious measure of measuring such things, all others in your scenarios still aspire to matching Gould’s achievements in the Olympic context. Fact. I don’t believe your other measures and comparisons work when assessing where Gould fits in the history of swimming – and that is so regardless of how educated or not the current generation of swimmers and fans may or may not be.

Yozhik

Craig, what my stance are you talking about? There was none of such thing stated. I’m a curious person and got surprised to find out that Shane Gould broke very fresh (just 4 months old) world record by 22.3 sec (!!). What a dominance one can think. But if this guy researches further he will find out that this record got broken pretty soon at trials and not only by one swimmer. I really wanted to know what was going on in women’s swimming forty four years ago. That was it. But for some reason you don’t want to see it. No problem. Will look for answers from other people who may also know something interesting about that time.

Craig Lord

Yozhik, that is not what you appear to be doing at all. This is what you appear to be doing in your ‘absence of knowledge that you can’t find anywhere’: downplaying great achievement and seeking to compare what cannot be compared. You state your intent but I’m bound to say that your search will be fruitless if you wish the answer to match the hypothesis you appear to have built: you won’t find any info that backs up what I read as a weird theory. Gould was a pioneer, setting a pioneering pace (more workload; great deal of natural talent; fine coach a pioneer himself, helped by his wife Ursula Carlile, an important part of the picture). Gould and team showed the way and the USA was following, not just with one swimmer but several (that pattern you will find at several other times in history, including throughout the GDR years, sometimes more effective than others). If you are genuine in your search for understanding of what was happening in women’s swimming at the time, seek out the written works of Forbes Carlile (her coach and a man who this past week, well into his 90s, sent me some questions on a topic he is still researching 🙂 and Cecil Colwin. When you’ve read that, let me know and we can discuss further – after Rio 2016… and that autobiography will indeed help you, too.

Yozhik

Craig we are different people and have different views and mentality. But there is some thing that makes us similar and fuels this discussion – we don’t listen to each other. Yes, any research starts with the hypothesis. It can be fruitless or fruitful depending on what will be discovered. And if you can help me with that then it would be greatly appreciated. But honestly speaking when I see the arguments that start with such words like “weird” I don’t expect anything substantial to follow and am losing the interest to continue.
I have a strong quantitative background and seriously believe that if there is no numbers involved then there cannot be any scientific discussion. So whenever such terms, like “feel of water”, “pioneering”, “revolutionized” etc are used I am getting helpless in such talks and cannot contribute anything useful to them.
I have a feeling that when I am trying to dissect the Shane Could phenomenon i’m touching something personal in you. If it is so then it will be better to stop.
Thank you for the provided references anyway. I will definitely look at them.
P.S. You are mentioning some my theory. Can you be more specific with that. So I will at least know what to defend.

aswimfan

Anyone can always find something if they really want to find it.

Yozhik’s hypothesis since everyone keep referring Ledecky’s achievements to Gould’s: Find something in Gould’s achievements that can be used to argue that Gould’s were not all that.
Also, keep trying to undermine Gould by urging everyone to compare Gould to Sarah Sjostrom.
Yozhik keep claiming he believes in numbers.
Shane Gould = FIVE individual medals in a single Olympics, including 3 golds in WR tims.
Sarah = ZERO.
So, basically Yozhik tries to convince everyone that 5 is equal to zero.
This is from a guy who keep claiming he believes only in number and stats.

I call it BS.

Craig Lord

Yozhik, it is personal to all who lived through things in their time and in context. That is part of the nature of being a fan, as I was when Gould was making a bigger noise than any other woman swimmer for a short time as a shooting star in the early 1970s. Since then, many years on, I have written a great deal about her career as a swimmer, a little bit about her other achievements, have interviewed her on a number of occasions and been able to assess where she fits in the history of swimming (my take) – and that is all down to fact, stats AND the emotional feel of a great many people. Read not just what I recommended but seek out the views of others (quotes galore out there, no time to be your librarian) who had things to say about Shane, from within the camp, like Michael Wenden etc, to outside it. Sorry if ‘weird’ upset you but that is how I feel – the comparison you made is indeed that for me (the greatest Olympic result at a single Games in solo racing among women compared to swimmers who are fine but have yet to win a single Olympic medal and don’t even swim the same events, largely – makes no sense) – it doesn’t work at all and nor did I perceive any particular logic in your argument. Meyer, Gould (Babashoff but sadly the colours don’t stack up, for reasons we know about and reasons that speak to the arguments for official acknowledgment), Evans, Manaudou, Ledecky and all the way back to Madison… those are the comparisons that work – and the why is fairly obvious.

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