Outsiders To Monitor RUSADA’s Work During Kazan World Swim Championships

In a season in which the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) has called an independent investigation into allegations of systematic doping in Russia, a panel from FINA’s Doping Control Commission is to supervise the collection of anti-doping samples by agents from RUSADA, the Russian anti-doping agency

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In a season in which the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) has called an independent investigation into allegations of systematic doping in Russia, a panel from FINA’s Doping Control Commission is to supervise the collection of anti-doping samples by agents from RUSADA, the Russian anti-doping agency

Comments

aswimfan

I don’t trust some of them.

Danjohnrob

I’m sure Russia has made SURE that all the drugs and masking agents will be out of their swimmers bodies before Kazan, so testing during the competition should be fine, but it’s nice to know somebody is trying to keep them honest during the meet anyway!

Danjohnrob

PS: Make sure the collaborating WADA technicians speak Rusian so they understand when the RUSADA technicians say things like, “Distract that Australian guy while I replace this Russian urine sample with the one I’m hiding in my pocket like Putin instructed us!” 😉

beachmouse

The whole saga had actually left me with a concern that if they were tampering with samples of their own athletes, then what’s to stop RUSADA from tampering with samples of international athletes to create false positives?

Because there is no subtlety about the process in Russia right now, I could see a sudden ‘scandal’ where 75% of American swimmers, 40% of Australians, and 67% of Danes suddenly test positive for PEDs if there had not been outside supervision in the process.

This announcement is weirdly proactive by FINA standards, and if the federation of jellyfish is showing a sign of concern over RUSADA’s integrity at this point in the game, the truth of the matter must be screwed up indeed. I just hope that most supervision is from WADA proper and not the usual FINA hacks that are still stonewalling about the SUN case.

MP

Danjohnrob – what? You do not mean Armstrong, Hamilton, Landis, Gay, Gaitlin, Jones, Hardy, Montgomery and the list could go on forever? oh, I see… They were paid by Bill Clinton and his predecessors as well as successors? Doping is doping. All nations are guilty of it. Some more than others. Russians and Chinese of course, but what about Brazil, Jamaica etc? I hate doping irrespective of who cheats. Sub Yang is still competing and he is not Russian. And he smiles at all of us. His medals are safe, his sponsors too. He made millions out of those poor clean swimmers who sweat tears and blood to then be denied by dopers. There are so many more than you can think who have not been caught yet. And not necessarily Russians…

Yozhik

Suggestion:
If someone is risking her/his reputation as knowledgeable person by stepping on a slippery road of making such low jokes then make it funny at least.

Danjohnrob

I think my comment WAS funny, and if some people don’t have a sense of humor about this subject, perhaps it is because a number of positive drug tests have made them overly sensitive to accusations.

@MP: I don’t deny that athletes from all nations are guilty of doping; however, I hasten to note that only one swimmer was on your list of US dopers. I do not cheer for US track or cycling athletes or athletes in those sports from any nation because drug use in them worldwide is out of control. I WILL defend US Swimming and its treatment of athletes with positive tests though!

The day the WADA starts an, “…independent investigation into allegations of SYSTEMMATIC doping…”, involving US swimmers will be the last day I follow the sport of swimming!

Yozhik

What great about this site is that one can learn so much from it. A controlled attitude and political correctness from Craig Lord, the exceptional politeness and tact from FOR33 and a hilarious sense of humor from (of course, who else) Danjohnrob. But am I missing something from your response? – If unfortunate shameful things happen to US swimmers you are planning to run away?! Choosing not to fight as you are bravely doing it now when other countries are in troubles? Oh, I am sorry, English is not even my second language and therefore I probably didn’t get your joke again.
Danjohnrob, if put all these teasing aside, I’ll tell you seriously that your joke doesn’t make any good. Russian is my second language and I know more about this country than you do. That allows me to make a judgment of how insulting your joke can be taken and it is bad if you don’t care. I feel MP’s pain and deep concern when he is writing about “sweat tears and blood of millions denied by dopers”. He pointed very clear that it is not a local isolated problem. Fish rots from the head. And we must tell about this on each corners possible and fight for the sport purity, but not try to separate nations qualifying them on good and junk. You know that it is not a solution to kick all these “terrible” countries out of international community and to make the world championships the championships of United States. It will be a petty if you take my response as lecturing and offensive. To give you some idea of what your joke looks like imagine someone from outside US joking about current events in Baltimore.

Danjohnrob

@Yozhik, I sincerely appreciate the fact that you are multi-lingual. I did study French for 4 years, which was enough to show me how difficult it is to master multiple languages, but not nearly enough for me to be able to communicate effectively in it. The fact that you can understand that I was joking in what apparently is at least your third language marks you as an intelligent man worthy of respect in my eyes.

This article, as I quoted in my last comment, is about steps being taken by the WADA to ensure that drug testing is handled effectively and follows proper protocols during the upcoming FINA World Championdhips In Kazan. It is no secret that much of the international swimming community has lost trust in Rusia; if it were there would not be allegations of systemmatic doping or an investigation taking place! Therefore, a joke about that lack of trust is appropriate and reflective of how many swimming fans, at least in the US, feel about the fact that the biggest meet in our competitive season is scheduled to take place in Russia.

If Russian fans are offended by this investigation or allegations being made or my joke, I suggest they work harder to correct the faults in their own system. They should contact the leaders of their Swimming Federation and demand more severe punishments, and more thorough testing. If reforms are made, eventually the trust of the wider swimming community will be regained; but, trust is earned, so Russian fans are going to have to accept that it will take time.

In the meantime, if comments like mine are offensive to you, I suggest you refrain from reading them!

So Cal Swimmer

Well said, Danjohnrob.

Craig Lord

Yozhik, I’ve been called many things – politically correct is new to me …. 🙂 On Russia’s position, I can well understand why this is a very sensitive topic for Russians and I agree that the fight is universal. There is a place for humour, too, particularly that which pricks the bubble of politicians doing a great deal of harm to relationships between citizens of many countries as opinion and emotions polarise. Danjohnrob hits on a factor which cannot be ignored: the very reason why WADA is looking into matters in Russian sport – beyond the high positive count, there is this: that high count can be interpreted, shy of full knowledge and transparency, as indicating RUSADA’s good work as well as indicating a deep-rooted problem that stretches to RUSADA and even the Russian Government itself, according to allegations made by a former RUSADA agent, his athlete wife and several others who gave evidence to the ARD documentaries in focus. The accuser and accused are Russians in this case, so there can be no taking nationalistic sides there. We shall have to wait and see what comes out in December from the work of Dick Pound and his team. For now, what we have is a disturbing set of allegations that indicate a systematic nature to enhancing performance, in the mix young athletes who, as the Russian sports minister himself noted, may be victims of a network of rogues at the heart of a cultural problem. We should be careful with our humour but we should also embrace it when aimed not at the normal citizen but at systems that deserve to be ridiculed and held up as examples of poor and bad leadership (regardless of where that happens to be and in which language it unfolds in).

aswimfan

To be fair,

Equally, nothing has changed in So Cal. Dave Salo and Trojan Swim Club still accepted back Efimova and all the swimmers who tested positive to banned substances.

It doesn’t sound like a harsh stance against supplements as the folklore says, if you ask me.

Craig Lord

Yes, that is a fair point, aswimfan.
ADN Swim Project has a contract that its athletes sign. It stipulates that if they test positive, they must leave. They don’t bar supplements but they do insist on full transparency between swimmer/coach/team on such matters. Such things may not sit well with some aspects of wider American culture related to personal freedoms etc but contracts (and excellent practice and swimming clean) are also a part of that culture and all athletes are bound by a common contract: the WADA Code (and FINA rules for swimmers).
In general and speaking to no case and no country: there’s an argument, of course, for saying that the swimmer suspended has been punished and the case dealt with. That position can also prop up poor culture and sloppy attitudes that lead to all the tired excuses we’ve heard for many years when a positive test comes to call.

AussieBob

Making an observation (and not having a go at any one person, here or on any other sports related website), I find the discussions regarding amateur* sports and doping interesting (* not football of any code, basketball, baseball or any other sport with an upfront formal salary per se).

When someone raises the issue that Russia or China (or formerly GDR) as leading doping countries, a respondent usually counters that the U.S. is not so clean, just look at [insert athlete names here]. Most, if not all, are from Athletics and Cycling.

Often this is like comparing apples (swimming) to oranges (other sports).

With the exception of Hardy (which based on the evidence available may possibly have been an accident on part of the swimmer), how many well known and/or medalled (World Champs, Olympics) U.S. swimmers have been deemed to have doped?

Yozhik

Well said indeed. That is what I used to expect from your postings. But your joke was inappropriate as much as probably mine. It is sad if you don’t feel it. You also missed the point that if “MUCH of the international swimming community has lost trust in Russia” then how has it happened that Russia got a privilege to host a world championship and Putin was awarded by FINA? It is either you got misled about that “MUCH”, or FINA doesn’t care about that “MUCH”. In either case if FINA was firm and fair with doping control policy and Russia wanted that desperately to have the WC then be sure there will be less doping violation among Russian swimmers than among American ones. They are more dependable on government money, policies and coach committees’ rulings than probably any other swimmers in the world. So your suggestion for them “to work harder to correct faults of the system” is naïve if not to say more. But what I tried to highlight being probably inarticulate that their violations is nothing compare to FINA’s ones that let something like this happen worldwide, being probably generously paid or being given some other kind of favors. So far I haven’t seen any jokes at this site about FINA being bribed. Is it because one can be sued of doing that? Then let’s do it with Russians. It is safe. I feel uncomfortable preaching here and dissecting comments of intelligent and knowledgeable person but your joke is so much a stereotype that it would be appropriate to hear from a schoolboy rather from the man of your age. I still don’t get what was the purpose of it. To make a fun of what? To imply that “they” are all genetically programmed cheaters without any trace of dignity. I don’t care if it is Russia or China or Brazil, whoever. It is not the way to approach the problem and I would suggest to censor such “excesses”. So there would be no need for me to refrain from reading your comments. But I am a guest at this site as well as you are and it is not up to us to decide.

AussieBob

@Yozhik, while there are dopers in all sports and all countries (and always will be), the GDR, Russia and China are three countries who have been involved with widespread doping, in some case for many many years (and decades). This amounts to essentially state-sponsored doping. That is fact and can be easily corroborated.

For Russia and China to clear themselves of that image , they must do things better and cleaner than any other country and them some. To date has not happened, which is the point people on this website/blog are trying to make.

beachmouse

then how has it happened that Russia got a privilege to host a world championship and Putin was awarded by FINA?

************

Money. Look at the number of times FINA has turned to China to host big meets after their disgraceful actions of the 1990s. FINA may try to forget the Perth fiasco, but we do not.

Craig Lord

Yozhik, just to note that FINA has indeed been ridiculed and derided by readers of this site, and also defended. When people say FINA, it mans many things. The reason not to suggest bribery in relation to anyone or anything is, of course, legal: unless you have proof, you cannot write such things. Humour and context may also be considered with regards to what is reasonable. As for FINA suing anyone, that is an avenue open to all … one that would force disclosure.

Josh

I still want to know where/how Efimova trained during her ban to be able to pop off the times she did right after she became eligible again.

Danjohnrob

@Yozhik: As you should be well aware, there are many people in the international swimming community who think it was extremely inappropriate that FINA gave an award to Putin. You should also be well aware the World Championships were awarded to Kazan a long time ago. Obviously this investigation was triggered recently, and the international community’s concern over positive drug tests among Russian swimmers has increased even more recently.

It is sad that you believe working to reform the Russian Swimming Federation to eliminate drug use is a naive idea! How will we ever be able to clean-up our beloved sport when people who believe as you do exist?

If you think that rambling lectures are going to get me to apologize for my initial comment, you are incorrect. And while we’re making suggestions to each other, I suggest you look up the word “appropriate” in your English dictionary, because you seem to have forgotten its meaning.

Logic

Logic, this replaces your comment: you need to write in English, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian or German in comments. We don’t accept other languages because we need to understand ourselves what is being said. ED

Yozhik

It all looks different in the morning than in the evening. I am sincerely apologetic for making such a wave trying to bring the moral issues to the world of predictions, statistics, memories and chatting for the sake of chatting. My major point that such jokes do not serve any good purpose was not heard. Then never mind.
By watching recently Russian Championships I caught myself on thoughts that I wish all those swimmers to fail. I wished to fail Lovtsova who was greeted as she was out spending two years on orbital space station and now is back for the glory of Russian sport. I wished to fail “нашу золотую рыбку” (our golden fish. It has very gentle and tender mining in Russian), Yuliya Efimova who definitely has difficulties speaking Russian having very distinct American accent. I wished to fail the rising sensation Evgeny Rylov immediately suspecting him in cheating. But I also wished to fail all Russian for sure innocent juniors who just dream to repeat Ledecky’s achievements in sport. I hate them all because their success will be used by those who badly politicized sport buying a special treatment from FINA and making influence on FINA’s policies. I have no problem with Australian sprinters domination, I am happy for British getting finally a strong team, I will welcome Latin American nations should they succeed. I have no issues with Germans, Italians, Frenches etc. But knowing basically very little about them I am already strongly against any Chines or Russians. How did I get to this point? Of course there is a history of violations that put a shade of suspicion on everything they do. But it is also because I was for long time already in the environment of such jokes. The jokes that have all rights to exist (because they still are jokes at the end), the jokes that are based on bullet-proof arguments. But they still don’t do any good because they make me worse and are razing immediate negative unproductive reactions from the other side. I hope you don’t understand comments from Logic. On the other hand it looks like my problem only and it was not appropriate (is it correct usage?) to bring them to this forum.

MP

Aussiebob – So Hardy was innocent, but Sun Yang, Park and all the others are guilty. That is the typical pro-American stance of all of you. Hardy was guilty full stop. As for comparing apples with oranges, I don’t think so.. You talk about systematic doping by China and Russia in swimming. What do you call the systematic doping in cycling and athletics amongst some sports, by the Americans? No athlete in the world has ever done what Lance Armstrong has been capable of over a decade of doping, bullying and blackmailing his rivals, team mates, doctors and all officials. And he still professes to be a victim of the system!!!

MP

Danjohnrob – True. Only one American swimmer got caught. But first of all cycling, athletics etc are sports too and if one country is more guilty in swimming, others are more guilty in other sports. Also, don’t forget that Armstrong never tested positive. Both because of masking agents and because of corruption of the authorities to a scale which makes China, Russia and DDR look like innocent countries! If there is one athlete in the world who surpassed anyone else surely that is Armstrong. Let’s just hope the list of doped swimmers does not get much longer, but I am afraid that this is wishful thinking at best. Nice reading your posts anyway. Take care for now.

Craig Lord

Yozhik, you are welcome to bring such things to this forum. I think apples and pears are placed in the same bowl as if one all too many times in your satirical sketch. Logic will be understood or he/she won’t be here. Very simple.

beachmouse

Athletics and cycling both bottomed out in a way where doping was universal at the elite level no matter the passport of the athlete. In recent years, there has been significant improvement in both sports. Look at how few modern female runners can come vaguely close to the steroid fest world record times of the 80s. Look at how times for the great climbs on the Grand Tours- L’Alpe d’Huez, Ventoux, Tourmalet, etc.- that are commonly done have gotten significantly slower since the Armstrong/Operation Puerto/Dr. Ferrari era. (Now the UCI should have tossed out Astana this year, even if it cost Nibbles, who has never tested positive, a shot at defending his tour, but that’s another sport.)

Swimming has never had this bottoming out where we’ve had an ‘everyone’s injecting it’ period of time, and it really does seem like some countries go rogue on the PEDs for a few years to a decade or more.

Entirely different fruit bowl, in part because doping is expensive and the financial rewards from swimming save if you’re a Phelps or Coughlin or Katinka just aren’t that great compared to those other two sports. Those who dope in swimming generally do so for national glory rather than the big paychecks you can find for top level cyclists or runners.

AussieBob

Agreed Craig

@MP, please re-read my post. I stated that American sports have been guilty of wide spread doping – Athletics and Cycling to name two of the more prevalent (I am not including ‘professional’ sports such as Gridiron, Baseball, etc in this).

My point is, other than Hardy, whether guilty or in err, what other well known or medalled American (or Australian) swimmers have been found guilty of PED doping?

Everyone who seems to defend the Russians and Chinese automatically point to Americans, but it is the non-swimming sports that are used as examples, not swimmers!!!

The same cannot be said for Russia and China. Comparing the U.S. swimmers to the Russian and Chinese swimmers, when it comes to doping, is like comparing apples to oranges. The Russians and Chinese or close, if not fully, state-sponsored in their doping regimes. That cannot be refuted.

Danjohnrob

I think the point here has less to do with what athletes from which nations have been caught doping and more to do with whether their federal ADA’s are allowing it! This investigation by WADA wasn’t triggered by positive drug tests, it was triggered by allegations that RUSADA was allowing doping. @MP states that, “Only one American swimmer ‘got caught'”. I hope he is not insinuating that the USADA is covering up doping in the US, because that would be an irresponsible accusation. The investigation in question is taking place because people have brought forth evidence and are providing testimony discrediting RUSADA. That’s very different!

Perhaps people here believe I am saying Russian athletes cheat but US athletes don’t. I AM not, and as far as I’m concerned I HAVE not said that. What I AM saying is that I don’t trust that RUSADA is doing it’s job, and I’m glad their work will be monitored. I also think Russia/the Russian Swimming Federation may not be doing everything they can to discourage doping by its swimmers. Go ahead and disregard me, but I would argue it is a mistake for Russia to disregard the level of distrust and concern the international community has going into this World Championships!

Viva la Bang

Corruption in sport has always existed, as have drugs,these officials and federations will cover up positive tests to show themselves to the world as winners at any cost.

Viva la Bang

None of the former GDR athletes tested positive either, but they were juiced to the eyeballs

beachmouse

The DDR was able to do what it did because it could operate in a closed system where records and athletes could easily be hidden from sight.

Great firewall of China notwithstanding, it’s harder to hide the dopers in the modern global telecom era. Everyone expects to be able to get results instantly, even from countries that can be rather opaque.

It’s looking like Russia’s racewalking program is about to be decimated by suspensions again because a Canadian blogger managed to get hold of pictures off a Russian sporting web site from a meet where athletes under doping ban were competing and the evidence of violation of the ban looks to be there in full color jpeg.

Those kinds of things just would have never been discovered pre-internet.

As for American athletics, yes, no one likes that Justin Gatlin is still allowed to compete and saying that you think Carmelita Jeter is clean over on the Let’s Run message boards is like throwing chum to sharks. But USATF is also a far more transparent organization now than it was in the bad old days of the 1980s, and progress in other waysh as been made.

Andrei Vorontsov

Dear Friends, just FYI (beyond Jessica Hardy):

Angel Myers Martino case – 1988 suspension for testing positive for nandralone. She was a captain of the 1996 U.S. Women’s Olympic Swimming team.
American hope Jesica Foschi – widely known for testing positive for steroids during the 1995 national championships. The United States reduced the ban and allowed her into the 1996 Olympic trials where she fail to qualify for the Games.
And with all respect – Angel Martino was a client of infamous BALCO company (found innocent).

It is our mutual problem to clean the House of Swimming.

Viva la Bang

Absolutely, so many point the finger at others when they should be looking in their own backyard, Doping is still going on, and always will, If you think the Olympics and other contests are clean, you are not living in reality!

Craig Lord

Andrei. Thanks – quite so.

beachmouse

There was also Gary Hall Jr’s suspension for recreational cannabis use and Kicker Vencil was the original ‘tainted supplements’ case. (Kicker won a civil court case against the supplement manufacturer, IIRC.)

Still four cases over 30 years in a country that has more registered swimmers than some FINA members have total population is not really an even comparison to countries that will have more doping positives than that over a 12-24 month period in a smaller membership base.

Andrei Vorontsov

Apologies for my mistake – in connection with BALCO I it was Amy Van Dyken, of course (not Angel Martino).

Craig Lord

Thanks Andrei, yes. Martino was positive and suspended

Yozhik

Craig, If I may suggest then satirical articles, but not sketches and written by professional but not armature and targeting critical issues in world swimming but not ridiculing you lovely followers is long due to this site. Thank you for welcoming me, but don’t get regret later. Yozhik is a cute creature until one displeases it or attacks. Of course you are in power to shout me up at any time following any of your whim but it would be unfair to me. So it is better to do it now than later 🙂

AussieBob

@Andrei – thank you for the memory refresher and stated support to clean the House of Swimming for all nations.

@beachmouse – while I recall Hall Jr’s recreational drug suspension, I and most responding were focused on PED, not recreational, use.

aswimfan

Yes, we all know about Amy Van Dyken and her connection to BALCO. She was actually a regular client of BALCO.

It really tells you something.

Craig Lord

Yozhik, clarity and accuracy are your watchwords. I think this site has offered many varying views and will continue to do so. I think you meant shut not ‘shout me up’. You can say what you wish unless it strays into obvious inaccuracy, personal insult or defamation. And the name is Craig, not Graig. Thanks

Yozhik

Craig, please accept my apology for misspelling your name. I know how it feels. My name being shorter than yours but sounding unusual has been misspelling constantly in US mail. I counted already 26 versions and started to collect them. I will try to pay more attention and to do my best. Please, be patient if my best is not good enough. Unfortunately the languages that I am proficient with are not permitted at this site. From my experience I know that when people want to understand each other the language was never a problem. In opposite, the pointing on inferior quality of my language happens when no arguments left. I used to it and like it, because it ease the situation allowing my opponent to blow off steam and also shows his weakness. And of course I am learning from it. I remember the fight between you and some American about differences in American and English spelling. His intention was very clear – to hurt you. I am sure you will not do such things to me because by reading my comments your readers not only enjoy the “deep thoughts” but have some fun as well 🙂

Yozhik

Whenever someone is posting to your site he/she must provide email. How it can possibly be used?
Also I have some suggestion. When discussion has gone far away from original topic, let people communicate uncensored directly via provided emails. It will increase the number of hits of your site and will clean the discussion form some unrelated exchange. It is also the way to make friends or to say opponent whatever you think about him. To make this process controlled you can add an extra field next to email box where would be possible to specify names which one doesn’t want to get email from. Like Craig Lord or Yozhik or no one, whatever.

Yozhik

The emails should be still hidden and all communication should go via swimvortex.com

aswimfan

Yozhik,

that kind of communication exchange is possible if there’s a feature to set username/account.
As such, Swimvortex does not have it right now, CMIIW.

Yozhik

no account is needed. Swimvortex keeps already in database the following information: Name and email. If I make post and specify at this moment the name of destination then my message will be either displayed or sent to someone. It is very simple web application to generate email with text provided. I know what I am talking about.

Craig Lord

Yozhik, I was not pointing out any inferior use of language just noting the rules of the site as applied by me: accuracy sometimes does hang on the correct use of language, of course. It isn’t a criticism … just how it is.

Yozhik

No problem, I will follow the rules you applied. [Your request for information has been noted and passed on – ED]

Craig Lord

aswimfan, the feature is actually possible with the flick of switches, so to speak, but we won’t be using any such mechanism. A lot of people leave a pen name/moniker and a false email address, so that would be of no use to anyone – and this is not an area I will be wasting any time on.

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