Katinka Hosszu Churns Out U.S. Open-Record 4:31.07 in Santa Clara 400IM Prelims

Katinka Hosszu [Gian Mattia D'Alberto / lapresse]

Hungarian Katinka Hosszu dropped a 4:31.07 performance in the 400 individual medley during prelims of the USA Swimming Pro Series in Santa Clara.

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Hungarian Katinka Hosszu dropped a 4:31.07 performance in the 400 individual medley during prelims of the USA Swimming Pro Series in Santa Clara.

Comments

aswimfan

Stunning swim that’s all I have to say.

roy

katinka hosszu is the bomb. I think she,ll go sub 4:30 very soon.

Luigi

The more I look at those splits by Ye Shiwen, the less they add up.

felixdangerpants

Couldn’t agree more Luigi. The most ridiculous split in history. And she’s done nothing since.

roy

The same with Alison schmitt. She,s done nothing since her textile best of 1:53 in the 200 free.

Bad Anon

Very balanced splits, solid last 100, there is always room for improvement. However, Hosszu needs to LEARN to ease up a bit in the prelims and pull all the stops in the finals. A similar trend was seen in Europe mare nostrum where her heat swims were faster than finals. I can bet my dollar she’ll be 4.31 prelims in Kazan which is just the sheer waste of energy; when Rice went a 4.29 she was “just” on 4.35 prelims.. Something for Katinka to think about

Kim

She is just testing, Bad Anon – don’t expect her to swim this way in Kazan and Rio!

beachmouse

Schmitt has come out and said she had some significant mental health issues after London. She seems to have her head in a healthier place now and has refocused her training.

Even if she ‘only’ gets back to a 1:55 high in her coemback, that makes for a scary 4×200 relay come Rio.

Dee

Another comment section on an article about IMers hijacked by Ye Shiwen sceptics. Original.

I have said time and time again, I am fairly confident Chinese coaches legally (however possibly unethically) pushed boundaries using drugs such as trimetazidine, increasing coronary reserve flow and thereby delaying the onset of symptoms experienced through exercise.

That plays into numerous counts…

Zhang Lin’s blistering finish in Rome.
Zhoa Jing’s 30. final 50 to overhaul Sakai and break Kristina’s WTB 200bk in 2010 Asian games.
Sun Yang’s ridiculous 25. final 50m to take 1500 WR.
Ye Shiwen’s infamous 58. in London.

I also recall Liu Zige & Jiao Liuyang doing some pretty magical swims too – More often ‘battle of attrition’ types, such as Liu’s 2.01 WR. Even Li Xuanxu’s 29. final 50 to take IM bronze in London, she has freestyle background but had not been competitive on free for quite a while.

Also coincidentally not banned until January 2013 or 2014 (I think?)…

roy

DEE, legal and unethical don,t do together. Long distance runners and swimmers who train at high altitude are increasing the ability of their red blood cells to trap oxygen legally. are such training methods ethical. What about athletes who don,t have access to high altitude training due to lack of funding for travel.

roy

DEE, misty Hyman swam a 2:05:88 to win the gold medal ahead of the favored Susie o niell at the 2000 olympics and then dissapeared. She never swam a time near that before or after the 2000 olympics. I don’t think we have ever seen such an extreme case of a swimmer putting up such a huge time and winning a gold medal at the Olympics and then completely dissapearing without even getting on the podium in future meets (world championships,Olympics, and other small meets). when people seek evidence of doping they usually use the explanation of a swimmer comming out of nowhere and dissapearing. Misty Hyman fits that narrative. Others use the explanation of a big split (in part of a full race). Ye shiwen fits that narrative. But unlike misty Hyman, ye shiwen doesn’t fit the narrative of completely dissapearing as she still puts up decent times. Others use the explanation of an old swimmer(a swimmer past their prime) still putting up fast times as an explanation for doping. Dara Torres fits that narrative. Others use the explanation of very quick recovery between swims. Michael Phelps and katinka hosszu fits that narrative. Recently the world swimming magazine published an article concerning katinka hosszu,s quick recovery and suggested she was doping. So people will always speculate based on their narrative.

roy

Misty Hyman,s gold medal was in the 200fly. I forgot to add that.

John

Dee and Roy. Thank you for some interesting comments and well-made points.
I’d also add: Lezak’s one-off relay anchor, Lina Kachushite’s 200m BR final lap, Betsy Mitchell’s once only 2:08.60, Camille Muffat’s amazing negative splits pre-Olympics (RIP)…. I just love amazing swims and I don’t dwell on the reason too much! It’s entertainment!

beachmouse

Hyman blowing out her shoulder after the 2000 Olympics was pretty well documented- missed a full year of training recovering from surgery and was just never the same swimmer afterwards.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Dara Torres’ team was indeed researching ways to stay two steps ahead of the current WADA banned substances list. The interviews she gave were always about how she was complying with the letter of the law while still exploring better ways of recovering and training and all that.

And for those who also follow athletics, remember that Justin Gatlin’s original doping ban was because of one of those ‘I tried to mail in my TUE paperwork but my dog must have ate it out of the mailbox’ excuses. Kind of reminds me of Sun in some ways.

Craig Lord

Roy – some things fit into the category of ‘hard luck’, others into ‘known about and condoned by all’; then there are those that fit the category of banned substance/banned methodology and show that an athlete is either cheating (majority of cases) or has made a big ad costly mistaker by failing to know the rules of engagement. The comparison of altitude training and doping does not hold water – nor does one excuse the other.

Craig Lord

Roy, many fit a narrative in your mind and the minds of many who have different views … but Ye Shiwen’s last 100m is a unique narrative: the only time in Olympic swimming history that a podium placer (and champion) among women finished a race as fast as or faster than her male peers same distance, same event, as the men headed for the podium and the winner of the men;’s race also put in the swiftest textile time ever seen. No getting round it: nothing like in in swimming history. She was travelling over 3sec faster than the rest of the best in the world among women. Ridiculous. Truly unique and off the chart.

Craig Lord

John, the sport is full of singular moments that do not fit the ‘narrative’ that roy has placed together. The bigger point: ‘entertainment’ ends at the point people are getting hurt, denied, abused and much else; all of which comes with doping in sport. Doped performances and those that are weighted heavily on the scale of suspicion fit into the category of cruel sports (like animal fights, now banned in much of the world). Some find it entertaining. I don’t. And neither is watching doped athletes punch the air and pretend they’re something they are not. I’ve seen too much consequence behind the scenes down the years to be taken by the argument of ‘entertainment’.

Dee

Roy,

That was my point – Unethical is not Illegal, but it WAS increasing performance, hence the substance being made illegal (and Sun Yang later testing positive for it.. or a similar one, going off memory).

As for you suggestion that Schmitt & Shiwen were similar – That’s quite frankly nonsense.

John,

I would agree, if the it wasn’t almost always Chinese swimmers swimming these abnormally fast final 50s – Ye, Zhang, Sun etc… and by abnormally fast, I mean things that just do not add up. Has anybody other than Sun & Yang gone 25. at the end of WR pace over 800 & 1500 Free? Any woman other than Ye swam 58. at the end of an IM? Genuine questions, I haven’t got the facts here, just doesn’t seem likely to me.

The Chinese were using something others weren’t, something not necessarily illegal, but something shady and which is quite possibly now banned (certainly is in Sun’s case). I am sorry but it is not at all similar Lezak catching (silly) Bernard’s wave, Mitchell’s 2.08 or Muffat’s 4.18/4.04… to be quite honest, I’d expect here to be able to swim such splits.

aswimfan

Sun Yang’s last split in 1500 in 2011 Shanghai was 25.94 and in 2012 London was 25.68

At both times, I had nothing but pure admiration for Yang.

Ye Shiwen’s free split received the most scrutiny because comparison was easily made: with men’s times.

But looking back, Sun Yang’s last 50 in both 2011 and 2012 were actually equally as astonishing as Shiwen’s.

Thorpe, super famous for his kick and jet speed in the last 50, and was actually faster 100 freestyler than Yang is, only mustered splitting last 50 in 26 high in the 200, and 27 high in 400 in the height of his career.

Yang’s last split of 25.94 in 2011 was faster than any of the 200 free finalist in the same championships, a list that includes Lochte, Phelps, Biedermann, Tae-Hwan, Agnel, Lobintsev, Izotov, Meichtry.

Yang’s last split of 25.68 in 2012 was faster than the last splits of ALL 200 free finalists, including Agnel’s 25.98

When Yang did his 14:34, he split the last 100 in 54.22, while Hackett did his in 56.67

In 2011-2012, I was 100% attributing the astonishing splits to Yang’s more superior talent and technique.

Now? not so much anymore.

aswimfan

In essence, I agree with Dee and Roy that the elites, including Hosszu, Torres and the chinese, were/are using substances that are not strictly on WADA’s banned list yet, but nevertheless help with training, recovery and race.

roy

DEE, Schmitt swam a 1:53 in the 200 free in 2012 and has not been near that since then. If she were Chinese there would definitely be speculation. ye shiwen swam a 4:28 in the 400 IM in 2012 and has not been near that although she swam a 4:30 last year but her swims have been erratic. craig I know that ye shiwen has a monster split in the last 100 free of her 400 IM and that she was travelling 3 seconds faster than her next competitor. But her travelling 3 seconds faster than her next competitor is a narrative you choose to use to prove that she was doping. It doesn’t necessarily mean that she was doping. It,s just a narrative and speculation. I,m certain of one thing, if ye shiwen was an american and was travelling 3 seconds faster than the very best in the world, she will be celebrated as an american legend. I don,t think you would bat an eyelid. Travelling 3 seconds faster than the very best women in the world doesn’t involve splits that much. It requires raw speed and endurance.

Now I said earlier that if ye shiwen was an american sweetheart travelling 3 seconds faster than the very best, she would be celebrated as an american legend like ledecky. Now speaking of ledecky, she broke the 1500 free world record with a time of 15:28, she was travelling more than 20 seconds faster than the rest of the field. A time of 15:28 is what we expect from a teenage boy who is still developing not a teenage girl who is not yet a fully physically developed woman. Ledecky is celebrated even with that ridiculous 20 second gap. Her world record is also 10 seconds faster than the second fastest woman in history Lotte friis. Imagine if ye shiwen swam a 15:28 in the 1500 free and beat her american competitor by 20 seconds. The american media will go crazy.

aswimfan

roy,

In principle I agree with you, it’s not fair a swimmer gets a suspicion just because where she’s from and the one swim she did.

Meanwhile we get convicted swimmer in Efimova who still holds to her two Barcelona golds, and who may have trained in a US or Russia federations funded training facilities during her ban, and who may get to Kazan golds again (big chance, judging by how she has been swimming), and who is not chastised enough by the media, swimvortex only an exception.

roy

Don,t get me wrong. I,ve never speculated of any swimmer doping and never will. If a swimmer tests negative then I,ll leave it at that and move on. I,m not accusing ledecky of doping.
Ye shiwen,s last 100 split of 58 is historic no doubt but different things can be spectacular in different ways. Ledecky,s time of 15:28 is also spectacular but in a different way.
Imagine, Jessica ashwood is the first australian woman to go sub 16 minutes in the 1500 free with a time of 15:58. 15:58 is far away from ledecky,s 15:28. Australia is a strong swimming nation which has produced great male distance swimmers but their fastest female distance swimmer is 30 seconds slower than Katie ledecky. It just tells you how crazy ledecky,s time of 15:28 is.

aswimfan

roy,

Australia has also produced many world record breaking great female distance freestylers in the past, such as Ilsa Konrads, Shane Gould, Jenny Turrall, Michelle Ford, Trace Wickham.
However, ever since Hayley Lewis, for some reason AUS paused in producing great distance swimmers.
Remy fairweather (same age with Ledecky) re-started the hope with a 4:08 as a 14 yo in 2011, but apparently fell ill afterwards, and now with Ashwood, it’s a long overdue for Australia to keep up with the top female distance swimmers.

So, yes, Ledecky is ahead of the curve, in the manner of Janet Evans was.
However, as I have posted my comment in a different article where I made calculation of female:male WRs ratio, Ledecky’s WRs actually only keep up with the male WRs, after Evans’ untouched WRs for so long. In terms of comparisons with male WRs, Evans’ WRs were more groundbreaking/faster than Ledecky’s WRs.
So we cannot say that Ledecky’s current exploits are unprecedented, because previous distance swimmers like Evans and Wickham have done it also, if not more so.
In all fairness, Shiwen’s last split in London was unprecedented.

roy

aswimfan i,ve always said that ye shiwen,s last split in London was unprecedented. We all agree on that, but pegging it to doping is irresponsible at this point.

A woman swimming 15:28 in the 1500 free is unprecedented in any era.

roy

aswimfan I would like to ask bcos I don,t know. What are the differences between the male and female world records in the 400 IM and 1500 free percentage wise.

400IM men Michael Phelps. 4:03
400IM women Ye shiwen. 4:28

1500 men. sun yang. 14:31
1500 women Katie ledecky. 15:28

aswimfan

Women 400 IM WR is around 6.8% slower than equivalent men’s WR. (However, the men’s WR was done in shiny suit)

women 1500 free WR is around 6.5% slower than the equivalent men’s WR.

Meanwhile, in 1988, Evan’s WR was around 6.4% slower than Salnikov’s WR.

Dee

Roy,

You are missing the point entirely. It is the manner, not the time – Ye Shiwen was on 4.33 pace at 300m, she trailed the World Champ by a body length, a World Champ with a pretty tasty freestyle. What followed is quite frankly inexplicable. She split 1.57 on the 4×200 but could manage 58. off a touch (breast to free) turn at the end of a 400IM?

No, I am sorry, you are fighting a losing battle.

Craig Lord

Dee, I agree with that last line: Roy, you are seeking explanations that you won’t find. There was something very wrong about that swim and it followed something very wrong taking place 5mins before the swimmer entered the call room. Regardless of whether you call it doping or something we cannot explain as yet, the swim was assisted – I have no doubt.

roy

Craig why did you delete my recent comments.

Craig Lord

I did not delete any of your comments, ‘Roy’. I deleted one that looked like you were speaking but it was another name and profile. You can’t speak with two voices, Roy: stick to one profile, please, as I’ve told you before.

Dee

Assisted, Craig.. That was the word I have been looking for! Possibly legal at the time, but unethically assisted without a shadow of doubt.

roy

Sorry mistake in the 4th paragraph.
It should be you said that ye shiwen split a 1:57 in the 4×200 free relay and then a 58 in the 400IM in London. This is a narrative you choose as an evidence of doping. It doesn’t necessarily mean that ye shiwen was doping.

Craig Lord

Roy, I’m the editor. If you want to question my training in the law of journalism and my work on that score, then set up your own website and go for it, otherwise leave such decisions to me, please. Thanks.

Craig Lord

I believe the term being used was assisted, Roy. You said doping

Craig Lord

Roy, I now have deleted your last 2 notes. If you don’t get this: I am the editor; you are not; I decide, you do not… then you won’t be here anymore. I won’t take the time to read what you’re saying good, bad or otherwise; you will not be here. When I ask you to drop something, I mean it. I won’t be wasting my time on this. Thanks

roy

I,m not sure that both ye shiwen or hosszu will swim a sub 4:30. Ye shiwen,s swims have been quite erratic and hosszu swims a lot of races.

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