Florida’s Caeleb Dressel Pops U.S. Open Record 18.23 Clocking in 50-Yard Free

Caeleb Dressel will headline the USA Swimming Short-Course Nationals this week.
Caeleb Dressel will headline the USA Swimming Short-Course Nationals this week.

Caeleb Dressel set a pair of U.S. Open records in the 50-yard freestyle on Wednesday night, including a clocking of 18.23 in the final of the event at the Southeastern Conference Championships.

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Comments

aswimfan

I’m calling it now:
Dressel will win 50 free medal in Rio!

🙂

Rafael

I would slighly disagree with your call because we have on the mix

Manadou with a PB of 21,19
Adrian/Fratus with a PB of 21,37

So there are 3 more guys on the mix at least, and who knows what Morozov can actually do if he stops sabotaging himself and if Goodrich can put Cielo on 2013 form again.

DDias

aswimfan and Rafael,
the recent history calls for Dressel Olympic medal.The last two winners were 21 years-old.
50 free is an event prone for surprises.A guy well ranked but out of the media sight can win too(Sedov,Proud?).
For what I watched of yards and LCM, I would put Dressel mark in 21.3 range.
Manaudou has the edge.Right now.

Rafael

About sedov, didn´t he almost quit swimming? I heard something about it, dunnot if it was back pains or something like depression.

Blah Blah

Anything can happen in the 50 .. so much “luck” involved.

Yozhik

50m fs race is a very special one, nothing like any other freestyle races. For any swimmer the variations of results is very high. Cate Campbell says that she swims this distance like looking from above on herself. No thinking, no improvisation, just execute stroke to stroke move to move of what was trained many times at practices. Slight deviation and you are well behind from what was expected. It is very unpredictable race. That is why this distance requires strong specialization and it is not a surprise any more that strong 50m sprinter can be nothing at another sprinter distance that is 100. Will we see Dressel at 100m com before trials?

Yozhik

*100 m LCM

aswimfan

50 free winner is whomever has the best start and maintain the lead.
Cielo, Manadou, Kromowidjojo.

And that’s why, Cate Campbell, despite having easily the fastest “easy speed” among all female sprinters and jointly held the 50 free textile record has found it hard to win worlds or even medal (last year).
The 50 free field in both men and women is so deep and competitive that little mistake during the start may prove costly.

And I saw Dressel’s start was fantastic. May not be enough to unseat Manadou, but will be strong contenders for a medal, if he successfully navigates the US trials.

gheko

50 free is one of the hardest to predict, its all about the start and finish and maintaining speed under pressure, it will be close that’s the only prediction I will make!

Bad Anon

SCY simply isn’t LCM, period! Whatever he swims in lcm cannot be extrapolated from that performance. The start was excellent but he still has a lot to prove in the big pool. it’s a real tragedy USA swimming sticks to SCY format in this day and age. at the very least scm would be a positive move forward

aswimfan

Bad Anon,

You are right. SCY is not LCM.
But if there is one race/event where the gaps/differences are smallest, it must be the 50 free.

As far as I know, there are many NCAA greatest/top 50 free (male) sprinters who are Olympics/worlds 50 free champion and medalists: Biondi, Jager, Hall Jr, Earvin, Cielo, Bovell, Adrian, Jones, Draganja, Busquet, Wildman-Tobriner, etc.. That’s on top of my head.. So I may have made some mistake.

College meets give the sprinters many opportunities to practice their start in high pressure meets throughout the year. And we know that starts is very important in 50free.

Interestingly, the quality of 50 free swims among the women NCAA in the past decade and more have not been as good as their male ones, and you can see that there have not been many female Olympics/worlds 50 free medalist who swam college.

aswimfan

But yes, I am in agreement with commonwombat: I would predict Dressel’s great 50 free LCM, but I wouldn’t go too far in predicting great 100 free LCM for him, that is, until he swims it in the trials. 100 free yards is very very different from 100 free LCM.

I know that some enthusiastic people have already predicted 47low for Dressel in 100 free.

Which makes me wonder if those people realize that there has only been one person who’s swum 47low in textile, and he did it only once.

aswimfan

I agree about swimming SCY as being detrimental to US swimmers.
Can you imagine if US age group and college swimmers swim LCM only? They’ll be more dominant.
So, all in all, US swimming in yards is good news for the world swimming 🙂

ThereaLuigi

I wonder if he can keep that stroke for 50 meters straight without dislocating his shoulders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFlF8wRAKaM&feature=youtu.be

The guy has obviously all the tools and most of the strengths that he applies in this race can be translated to a 50 meters race (the 50 SCY is the distance that converts best to LCM in my opinion). The dive, the underwater following the dive, the stroke rate … I just wonder, when your brain is wired to swim 46 meters, and to turn at 23, how can you unlearn all that and teach it to keep on for 50?

paolo rubbiani

@ThereaLuigi. I’m pretty sure that Dressel will be a real force also in 50 free LC.
In San Antonio, last August, he swam 21.53 and his raw speed keeps improving (and, as you said, 50 SCY is the distance that best converts to LCM).
The real question is about 100 LCM after his expected great times in SCY.
However, Dressel chose Florida and Troy as a coach because his main target is LCM, not only SCY races.

ThereaLuigi

Paolo, I know about his 21.5, but the question here is not if this guy is an elite sprinter in LCM, the question is if he can be the fastest ever, as he is now in SCY.

The 21.5 was clocked without a French hulk in the next lane making a big splash and entering the water at higher speed than anyone else. Maybe relevant, maybe not.

I guess all these questions will be answered in Omaha and then, possibly, in Rio 🙂

aswimfan

ThereaLuigi,

That’s a good point about swimming fast 50 when the other guys on the pool are much slower and the water is more calm.

As a side note, in the 200 free relay, Dressel split a “benign” 18.41 with a pretty good RT .18 (it’s .64 in his 18.23 individual swim). In that relay, he was the third leg and entered the water fifth.
18.41 with RT .18 is substantially slower than 18.23 with RT .64

I don’t know if that was because he was affected by the emotional high from the individual 50 free or that the much turbulent water during the relay contributed to slower time, but he surely was trying to swim his fastest in the relay.

Rafael

Aswimfan that is the same point of mcevoy 47,5 you can’t to with a 22,4 and expect clear water. Even mag 47,10 need that kind of situation we know dressel starts are good but if he have manadou adrian fratus maybe cielo on his side what will happen?

ThereaLuigi

Rafael when you speak of “clear water” in relation to Mc Evoy’s 47.5 I imagine you refer to the wave coming off the wall at the turn from other swimmers. That is commonly accepted to have an effect on races. My question is, and since obviously that specific problem does not exist in the 50 free (LCM), if in the 50 free the turbulence created by the dive and the swimming of other swimmers in the lanes next to yours can also affect your race. It’s not a rhetorical question: I have no idea. Aswimfan makes a good point above comparing relay and individual race times, but honestly he could be just emotionally spent.

Also, as I said, I was watching the stroke of Dressel in the incredible 18.23 race and was thinking that if he does the same for 50 meters straight he will rip his own arms off!

aswimfan

Rafael,
In his 47.5 swim, McEvoy actually went out slower than in all of his other 47.6-47.8 swims (2014 Australian trials, 2014 pan pacs and 2015 world championships). He went out in 23.14 so I don’t know where you got 22.4 from

Regardless if his 47.5 is a fluke swim, we know he can swim with all the big boys….. And beat them.

paolo rubbiani

@ThereaLuigi: about the question if Dressel can be the fastest ever in 50LCM, obviously we have no certainty, but the improving rate of Dressel (still 19 year-old) is quite impressive.
His coach, Troy, set a bar for this season: 18.39 in SCY and 20.89 in LCM (he would have shaved his moustache if Dressel had swum one or another time).
In SCY Dressel, before the NCAA finals, has already swum better than 18.39, in LCM 20.89 would be an outstanding performance, that’s sure.
About having Manaudou in the next line, obviously it’s a disadvantage for everyone.
Also Magnussen, if we remind London2012 4x100free relay, was negatively affected because of swimming near Adrian.., and Manaudou is even more powerful than Adrian.
But if Dressel’s performances keep this improving rate, he could become unbeatable (in the 50 free) in the next years even if negatively affected at the start and in the first metres of the race.

DDias

paolo rubbiani,
coach Troy told about Dressel swimming 20.89 in LCM???
A 20.89 is a time out of this World and is much faster than 18.23 in yards…

ThereaLuigi

Ddias: he didn’t say he would swim it, he said those were the times it would take for him to shave his moustache: http://floridagators.com/news/2015/9/2/31146.aspx

paolo rubbiani

@Ddias: I think, like you, that 20.89 will be extremely difficult to obtain in this season also for a fast improving Caeleb Dressel.
But I also didn’t think possible to see Dressel swimming a 18.23 at SEC Championships.
Anyway, those times have been made by coach Troy, and the first one has already been bettered..
I

DDias

luigi and paolo,
I got it.
I just think it’s strange his challenge to shave his moustache because I think 20.89 and 18.3 are in two totally different levels of swim.Almost a half second in my book.

Yozhik

In support of Luigi’s postings, to those who loves numbers, conversion from SCY to LCM and torn arms.
Dressel 50y race – 21 strokes (8 in and 13 out).
Manadou 50m Olympic race – 34 strokes.
50y pool is 10% shorter than 50m pool. Has Dressel had 10% unused resources left at the end of the race?
Cate Campbell’s statement that she will be drown should the distance is 101 but not 100 meters can illustrate Luigi’s note that SCY sprinter’s brain can be wired for 46m and will fail to make an extra 10% of distance with same intensity.
Yes 50yard race is the best candidate for more or less accurate conversion but I will still strongly recommend not rely on it in any betting.
On the other hand Dressel may have no problem to reprogram his brain in short period of time. If it is so then we are dealing indeed with the unique swimmer.
p.s. all numbers were calculate watching videos and could be inaccurate.

aswimfan

Maybe coach Troy rely on one of those ridiculous SCY LCM conversion table to come up with a 18.39 and the 20.89

20.89 is LOL at this time.
I will eat my edible hat if it happens this year.

I think Florida swimmers have less problem converting their SCY swims to LCM, just look at Lochte, beisel and all those foreign swimmers who swim for Florida.

And I agree with ThereaLuigi about Dressel, he moved through water primarily driven by shoulders. Wonder how long it will take before he needs some work done on his shoulders.. Not wishing him injuries, but that technique is devastating on the shoulders.

aswimfan

I think majority of us agree that LCM world records are of much higher quality than yards records, not the least because the whole world swim LCM.

Please tell me a single SCY record that is higher quality than LCM record equivalent.

And we need to stop trying to convert yards time to LCM.

Yozhik

Asf,
1. I’m not sure how you measure the quality of records, to answer your question.
2. The whole world swims in 50m pools, because long, long time ago some idiot decided that swimmers should compete at same distances as runners regardless obvious difference in environment. Since building and maintaining 100m pool would be a stupidity of even greater magnitude then a 50m pool was chosen as compromise. Why do you think that size of the pool creates optimal conditions for highest quality of records I don’t know. Why not 75m or 62m or 35.678m? We have a long history of competition in 50m pools which we cherish. And I don’t see any reason to give up on it. That’s why I don’t like personally short course events. But there are plenty of people who love it. Follow this logic I don’t see why competition in yards is of lesser quality in your eyes. Believe me that swimming 1000y under 9min was for Ledecky as much important and as much difficult and as of much quality as her 800m LCM records.

aswimfan

Yozhik,

You misunderstood me.
When I said LCM WRs are higher quality, I meant they are stronger.

So for example, I think women 200 LCM free WR of 1:52.9 is stronger than the SCY record of 1:39

Another example, you tell Campbell sisters to swim SCY 100 free, and I have no doubt they will obliterate the yard record.
Or tell Sjostrom to jump into the yard pool, and I am a optimistic she’ll go 48high or 49 low in 100 fly.

Phelps never swam yards while in peak and tapered. If not, the SCY records landscape would have been much different.

Case in point: while in training, Ledecky swam a few SCY for fun and she obliterated the records.

Yozhik

@asf. Got it.
Regarding Ledecky. She was rested, and she does it per purpose in yards. She tapered for this record last year and failed having same problems as with 800 lcm. She is getting 19 in a month and the only age group record left (excluding sprint) that is not in her name is 200y.
I’m surprised she is not up to it. Maybe Franklin’s 1:39 is indeed very tough.

DDias

I am with Aswimfan.
I can’t remember a single yard record stronger than a LCM one.

Sjostrom doing ONLY 49 low?Untapered, of course.

Yozhik,
with her 1:54 speed, I think Ledecky can challenge Missy 1:39…

Wez

Whether or not Caleb can reach this time is not known. What i really found to be great is his attitude. What a polite gentleman. He is young, strong and going to be really great in the 50 LCM. He is going to contend for those 2 spots at Trials for sure.

Rafael

41.7 on 100 free seems his Focus will be the 50 free and maybe 2nd spot or relay only on 100 but won’t be a medal contender.

aswimfan

I’m with DDias, When fully tapered, Ledecky will break Missy’s 200 free SCY record.
.
I mean, Ledecky is faster than Missy in LCM 200, and Ledecky’s start and turn are better than Missy.
Ledecky should break the record by the time she swim for Stanford.

Yozhik

It is not a question if 200y freestyle record can be broken by Ledecky. We are discussing here if 25yard size pool swimming competition is something that doesn’t deserve attention and if records set at this type of competition are weak.
I don’t have exact statistical data but can assume that number of people who compete in yards is significant enough to care about records at such events, especially at age groups. Franklin’s age group record at 200y freestyle is very tough and will stay for many years unless Ledecky decides to challenge it in next couple weeks. I hope she won’t do it.
Just accept that that is different type of competition in swimming. Maybe close to international events, but is still different. Like long and triple jump. The later look weird to me but is still a competition with its own history, heroes and dramas. Should we get rid of it and to not popularize anymore?

Rafael

Yozhik the reason is that many swimmers do not swim yards and those who are at their absolute best won’t put a 100% focus on yard
Imagine what a current Campbell sjostrom could do? Or what a 2009 cielo 2012 adrian 2015 manadou could do?

Yozhik

Rafael, it is hard to imagine so. They will never do it. And that is a beauty of it. 🙂 It gives the opportunity for many American young boys and girls to have their names in book of records and to head toward international events in high spirit with positive expectations. Some people express the concern that training with the focusing on yard competition can make irreversible damage to summer’s ability to compete at international level. I have no opinion of this topic.

aswimfan

Yozhik,

Your analogy of long jump and triple jump in athletics to LCM and SCY in swimming is flawed and erroneous.

The more apt analogy would be track and field outdoor world championships (or athletic world championship) to indoor world championships.

Triple jump and long jump are two different events, just like 200 free and 200 IM in swimming. There are separate records for both indoor and outdoor just like there are separate records for SCY and LCM.

Also, I don’t think the rest of the world think much of the SCY records, what has been ridiculous is the many claims that so and so will swim ridiculous times in LCM (remember prediction for Cordes to swim 2:04 LCM?) just because they had just broke NCAA records.

If only people stop translating SCY swims to LCM swims then there should not be disagreements. Missy scorched 1:39 SCY but she just swim 1:55lcm. Same goes for Ryan Murphy with his 200 back SCY records which smashed previous record, but he is non factor in Kazan.

Etc. Etc.

Yozhik

I am sorry, aswimfan. I have no way to know what the rest of the world thinks. But if you posses such an ability and can speak on the behalf of this part of the world then I trust you.
Performance at SCY or SCM contains actually a lot of information. It can be used and has been used by professionals and coaches to make pretty accurate estimates of possible results at LCM. Keep in mind that the conversion coefficient is different for each swimmer, but is well known to the coach of the swimmer. We just shouldn’t be stupid to use stupid conversion utility. But if we do use them we at least have to understand the accuracy of such prediction. So if SW’s conversion utility converts Franklin’s 1:39 SCY into 1:51.9 LCM then I know that I can use this great tool if it is acceptable to be off by 3 sec in my prediction. At the same time I noticed that this utility works much better in Ledecky’s case.

aswimfan

Yozhik,

This is the first time I’ve heard that there is such thing as “personal conversion coefficient”. So how do you calculate this personal conversion coefficient?
Also, I was not talking about a coach using yards performance to gauge their swimmer’s long course performance. You seem privy to how coaches work and program, I don’t.

I was talking about the fans and followers of American yards swimming in many swimming media platforms who often floated off fantastical long course time immediately after a swimmer broke yards record.

I’m not saying and has never said or implied that yards swimming/records have no value. Obviously, they are important to US swimming community. What I, and many others here have contend is, that using SCY times to predict LCM times is an erroneous exercise. If you don’t think this is a non-event, you should have read many many comments, articles and even editorials by swimming magazines/sites where such exercise flourished.

DDias

aswimfan,
I never trusted Conversion Tools.I follow NCAA since the 90’s and never trusted when the tools arrived.
A simple example is Cielo times:
In 2007 Cielo was 21.84 and 48.51(textile body suit). In 2008 he broke two NCAA records(18.47 and 40.92) wearing a FS Pro(textile). At Olympics he made 21.30 and 47.67 wearing a MUCH FASTER LZR 50% poly.
When Cielo broke the 41 mark, I heard a lot of LCM WR is going down by a lot and other things, but never thought he would be getting 100LCM record(and the record was Bernard 47 mid at the time). Of course, the suit circus changed that.
I think the tools will need a lot of work to be really trustworthy.

Craig Lord

DDias, I agree – and don’t think the tools will ever ‘work’ – it simply doesn’t work like that – you’d need a different calculation for each different swimmer to get anywhere close. A general feeling for what the swimmer has converted to in the real world is more useful than a conversion tool that rarely stacks up.

commonwombat

100% concur, Craig & DDias. Whatever mathematical computation these tools may use; they cannot take into account the human factors such as their physiology or matters of technique.

The latter is particularly relevant as it can often be the case that someone who’s technique that is primarily honed in one format may struggle to translate to the other.

Yozhik

Aswimfan, it is my pleasure to be of service to such knowledgeable person. Whenever you haven’t heard or heard the first time some things don’t hesitate to ask. I am always at your disposition.
For the particular swimmer there is a strong correlation between results shown at SCY/SCM and LCM events. The statistical modeling such as regression analysis allows to estimate with high accuracy the relationships among variables presented by time series at SCY and LCM. It proved to be a very reliable way to predict the progress at LCM based on the progress shown at SCY/SCM. The human brain does something similar. Therefore if the coach has sufficient history of performances of his pupil at long and short pools she/he has no problems to predict expected times at LCM based on the results shown at short course. The parameters of such regression model, that I called for the convenience the ‘conversion coefficient’ very from swimmer to swimmer reflecting differences in physique, technique etc. If the conversion of Franklin’s 1:39 SCY into 1:51.9 LCM looks like absurd, then same conversion for Ledecky looks like a very descent estimate. I’m sure that if she beats Missy’s record at SCY going under 1:39 then Pelligrini’s record will share the fate of Frenklin’s one.
Why is it different for different swimmers? I tell you why. The long course swimming is more energy consuming. Franklin when she was the best at 200m fs in Barcelona was very slow at the end of the race. That wasn’t happening during her 200y record. Ledecky on the other hand is capable to maintain the pace whenever she catches the rhythm. Some swimmers are good with underwater swimming, some are better with stroke swimming. Some swimmers are losing breath at walls, some aren’t. Some need an extra oxygen at turns some don’t. You can continue such ‘SOMEs’ better than me.

aswimfan

Yozhik,

as I said, I don’t know anything about “personal conversion coefficient”, I’ve never been a coach nor an elite swimmer.

Are these personal conversion coefficient for top elite swimmers published somewhere?
But as for swimming LCM and SCY differently for each swimmer, no argument from me, I know that, along with most people here I’m sure. We never dispute that, in fact that is the point of most peple’s argument when some other people try to compare SCY and LCM. I think everybdoy knows that some swimmers are better in short course than long course and vice versa.

Can I ask what is the personal coeffiicient conversion for Ledecky, and for Missy for that matter?
I’d really love to know.
In youe above comment, You convey to know the conversion for Ledecky, please share the info 🙂

There is a hole in Ledecky’s resume: she never broke SCM record, and I hope she rectify the situation this year.

Yozhik

Aswimfan, the information you requested was calculated using USAswimming database that was obtained by member of my family for research purposes only. I’m bound for distribution of any part of it and for usage it for commercial and any other but research purposes. I can share with you the results of my research on the same conditions. In addition to the fact that you are a swimming fan, it will require from you to revile your real identity and providing a valid email and mail address. And there is no joke about it.

Eugene Chc

Franklin last 50 in 200y also were slow – 26s. but her first 100 were very fast 47,7. Ledecky 100 PB halfsecond slower.

Yozhik

Franklin’s fastest swim was her final leg at 4×200 in Barcelona (1:54.27 with RT- 0.56 sec that is not that far from her regular flat start).
First 50 – 26.17
Last 50 – 30.26
It is difficult to compare splits in 25y pool to splits in 50m pool where we don’t have intermediate 25m points. I was under impression that in percentage terms the speed lost was more significant at LCM race.
The only reason I mentioned this race is to show that Franklin and Ledecky are swimmers of different styles. Therefore when one is trying to do some short-long conversion the different approach has to be taken in each case. Or we have to make some adjustment to results of strait forward conversion based on the specifics of swimmer’s style.

Eugene Chc

her swim in first leg 4*200 in 2011 WCH also was great. her start and turn were bad compared with 2013, but speed on water with her old stroke was great.

Yozhik

Ledecky’s (1:54.43 )
27.38 28.81 29.12 29.12

Eugene Chc

Ledecky 200y PB 1:41.0, too short for her. Maybe with straight arm stroke she can sub 1,39, but not with current stroke.

Yozhik

The SW’s conversion utility mentioned in my previous postings converts Ledecky’s 1:41.0 (scy pb) into 1:54.24 LCM.
Perfect match!!

aswimfan

Yozhik,

Craig Lord has my name and email and credit card details because I am a silver member here, so if you wish, you can send those files to craig and he can send it to me.

Craig Lord

🙂 – I’m happy to pass on mail contacts between you and Yozhik, aswimfan, with permission granted by you both but just to be clear to all: I don’t see credit card details etc… such things are the preserve of others charged with handling such details in secure systems.

aswimfan

Craig, you have my permission to send Yozhik my email address.
Thank you.

ThereaLuigi

Ddias,
sorry for picking up on this so late. Perhaps coach Troy did not mean to equate 18.3 in SCY to 20.89 in LCM. Perhaps he just meant to say that a time faster than the current record in either course would bring him to shave his moustache!

Yozhik

Aswimfan, there is no need to put Craig in awkward position of middleman. You can use the following email to provide required information (Y.miscellus@gmail.com) .

aswimfan

Hi Yozhik,

I just sent you email.

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